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"Are there any rulesets that work at "contingent" level?" Topic
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dddd99 07 Feb 2016 8:02 p.m. PST
Hi All,
The more I read about Sengoku Jidai warfare the more I see it is a mixed unit affair with the lower level troops attached to their feudal master. So a Hojo retainer in the 1570s, for example, might command something like 500-800 troops. These troops fought for him, in close proximity to him.
It was not until later that infantry organization changed in Japan and teppo ashigaru were "pooled" with other teppo ashigaru from other lords to fight in an organized teppo "unit", for example.
So what I am interested in is ANY rules that reflect this; it does not necessarily need to be Sengoku rules that you recommend. I have heard people on this forum describe Feudal Japanese warfare as similar to War of the Roses style warfare, but I also wonder are there more examples of this "mixed" style of warfare?
Basically, I am interested in any rule treatment that somehow incorporates this information instead of just turning all "ancient" / "feudal" warfare into pristine roman unit warfare. Hopefully that last statement won't be misinterpreted; I am at a loss of words to describe this "mixed" unit syle of warfare.
I realize that Killer Katanas 2 could cover this period, but to do some of these larger battles you would require a large table. Are there any rulesets that work for people interested in basing mixed units: foot samurai, mounted samurai, and ashigaru with all their different weapons on one base (think of diorama style bases)?
advocate Supporting Member of TMP 08 Feb 2016 12:17 a.m. PST
A diorama style base woulds suit games like Sword & Spear or Impetus. I don't know if either currently have lists. However, they also have standard-sized units, and I wonder if that is what you need, or whether you want different sizes to reflect different contingents.
setsuko 08 Feb 2016 12:43 a.m. PST
I agree that it sounds like you're looking for something like Impetus. If you go for a smaller scale, like 6mm or 10mm, it's easy to mix and match different types on the same base.
I based my troops for DBA and FoG, on just 40mm wide bases, but I could still cram in a few infantrymen on my cavalry bases:
That way, even though you count the base as "cavalry" or "archers", you can represent them as more mixed, historical units.
If you go with a ruleset with even larger bases, you can do more impressive stuff, like these:
Jim Louttit based these on 3 inch square bases, and you can find more examples here:
link
Mike O 08 Feb 2016 4:19 a.m. PST
The free set "A Coat of Steel" from Perfect Captain are mixed contingent rules for the Wars of the Roses which I always thought would be very appropriate for adaption to samurai warfare (including pre Sengoku periods). It uses some novel mechanics to prevent it becoming a boring scrum.
link
Rabelais 08 Feb 2016 6:08 a.m. PST
I was thinking of converting ACOS myself for Sengoku samurai, but I was put off by the amount of work involved with changing the cards and other playing aids. But it's the best existing template that I'm aware of.
At the moment we're trying out a conversion of the Great Battles in History board game 'Ran,' using squares instead of hexes. Alternatively, you could use tape measurements, I guess. In Ran, the 'counters' are still single troop types, but a contingent can be made up of 8-10 bases, so there's more of a feel of a contingent being made up of small units of samurai, ashigaru, guns and cavalry. The problem with Ran is that it's a bit costly and hard to get hold of.
Rabelais 08 Feb 2016 7:16 a.m. PST
I also thought it may be possible to modify Peter Pig's 'Battles in the Age of War' rules. They already allow you to mix ashigaru spears, bows and guns in the same unit, but all samurai are grouped separately, and have their own morale class.
I think it would be possible to mix samurai and ashigaru together and use the appropriate morale class depending on the percentage of samurai remaining in the unit. AFAIK mixing samurai and ashigaru like this wouldn't impact the melee rules.
Personal logo Extra Crispy Sponsoring Member of TMP 08 Feb 2016 8:08 a.m. PST
Taiko! will do what you want. Figures are nominally based individually, and the armies are built around sub-commanders. You'd just need to tweak the lists where you want.
link
mad monkey 1 08 Feb 2016 9:04 a.m. PST
Try these if you can get a hold of them:
link
gamedad25 08 Feb 2016 10:00 a.m. PST
Contact <PRESIDIO_ANONYMIZED_EMAIL_ADDRESS> for Chrysanthemum Throne pdf.
I believe they are sold in a bundle with Age of Gunpowder and Le Petit Empereur for $15.00 USD usd.
BelgianRay 08 Feb 2016 1:55 p.m. PST
I agree totally with Extra Crispy : go for Taiko. No way around it.
dddd99 08 Feb 2016 6:49 p.m. PST
Hi All,
Thanks for all the responses. I already own Taiko!, Killer Katanas, Impetus, and Sword and Spear. I have 6mm figures: Irregular as well as Baccus (I do not usually mix them). I once attempted to buy Chrysanthemum Throne, but that company closed their internet presence a week before I went to buy them ahah. I think I may email Chipco, based on gamedad25's post above; thanks. I would love to buy BAW, but I would really enjoy a cheaper price or a pdf version since I am not sure it is what I am looking for.
All of the rules mentioned above I am not sure will suffice for me. I have researched so much Japanese feudal warfare over the past year or so that I have decided to write my own. That was why I was looking for other examples of "contingent" warfare.
Here are some responses to the above posts:
advocate – I have already played some samurai battles using lists I created for Sword and Spear. What can I say I love Sword and Spear, but it does segregate figures into "units". By the way I highly respect Impetus as well but I find S&S more enjoyable; but they are both top notch.
setsuko – your work on yr 6mm Baccus is amazing. I have always admired them and have seen them before in prior posts. = ) in fact your images are why I decided to buy Baccus. and I have seen Jim L's work before too. Simply amazing. In fact, his diorama bases are what led me to developing my own "contingent" based approach; that and playing my new Nobunaga's Ambition game I got off Steam. I found out that Japanese game/sim creators routinely represent these battles using this "contingent" based approach.
MikeO & Rabelais – thanks so much for the idea to recommend ACOS. I am reading thru it now. = ) Very good stuff so far. Lots of ideas.
Extra Crispy – I do enjoy Taiko! rules and am very happy to have them in my collection. Ihave said before and will say it again they are definitely worth the purchase. Not too expensive, pdf download and instant gratification.
Like I said, thanks for all the informative and interesting responses, all. Now I am off to read some ACOS and maybe to work on my rules. Best wishes.
Lion in the Stars 09 Feb 2016 11:49 a.m. PST
I was under the impression that even a low-ranking commander would divide his troops into single-weapon squads of Spearmen, Archers, and Teppo.
The Ashigaru teppo squads appear to be mixed with ~3-5 teppo and 2-4 bows, with the archers shooting to protect the gunners while they reloaded.
EValerio has some great illustrations that he based on the Takeda Screens, thread is here on TMP: TMP link
I guess the real question is, what figure compression are you running? If you're modeling at something like 1:30, then I'd use a squad stand to represent a company. But if you're using 6mm figures, you could go nuts and model things 1:1 for a not-unreasonable cost.
dddd99 09 Feb 2016 9:26 p.m. PST
Lion,
I am familiar with EValerio's work. It is top notch.
I believe he has stated before that the Kawanakajima Kassen Byobu screens were influential in his illustrations:
I believe these types of formations are referred to as sonae. They are usually 300-800 men. As you can see there are mounted troops and foot troops as well as archers and gunners.
The issue in my opinion is when you play a game, take impetus for example, its bases represent 300-1200 men depending on the circumstances/troop type. So this seems incompatible with Evalerio's illustrations. If I were to wish to represent his illustration, which I actually do, then one of his illustrations is say 500 men +/-. If 50% of those are ashigaru wielding infantry weapons like nagae yari or whatever, and 20% are an ahshigaru mixture of missile troops (teppo/yumi – these ratios evolved throughout the sengoku toward more heavy on the gunners). That's about 70% ashigaru. That leaves about 30% of what people refer to as the samurai (I realize this line between samurai/ashigaru definitely became increasingly blurred as the sengoku went on) – some are mounted some on foot.
To give a real world example I bought some 6mm Irregular samurai range (I have lots of Baccus as well =-) ). I played it with Sword and Spear rules (which I have high respect for). As some of you may know the figures came in strips and therefore I could not cut apart as you can with Baccus. So I ended up with a base of samurai on foot charging a base of yumi ashigaru for example. If each base were like 300 men it makes this seem odd and not how I now picture samurai warfare.
So I am saying maybe make a game where we use EValerio's nice illustrations as a template and maybe represent them on the tabletop as Jim Louttit's bases that setsuko has shown above. I dunno to me that'd seem like a sweet game. Maybe I am wrong.
So thanks for the reply, Lion. To answer your question about figure compression…. I dunno my thoughts above maybe give a rough draft of that… hopefully. To be honest I have not based my Baccus 6mm yet and I want to make sure I do it right so I am leaning toward Jim Louttit style basing and I need rules to accommodate that. Tall order I know. hahah. take care.
setsuko 10 Feb 2016 2:42 a.m. PST
Thinking of it, you could look at games that are even more "zoomed out", like Blücher. A lot of the time when I read about campaigns in the period, the commanders focus much more on the issues that Blücher deals with (getting your divisions to the right place, marching orders, scouting, surprise attacks, choosing a favourable battlefield) than "this unit of spearmen charges into this unit of spearmen".
We're planning to try out Blücher at the club once we've painted up enough 6mm napoleonics, and maybe after that I know more about how easy it would be to convert to 16th century Japan. And basing and unit composition would be far less important when you're "units" represents a corps.
But I agree, it's very hard not to feel like you're constantly trying to fit a square peg through a round hole when looking at army sized tabletop games in this period.
Rabelais 10 Feb 2016 3:50 a.m. PST
The precursor to the GBOH board game 'Ran,' called 'Samurai,' had 4 troop types: cavalry, infantry, bows and teppo. The latter two were treated as lighter units. For the later Sengoku period, a mechanism was introduced whereby all infantry could fire as teppo to represent the greater proportion of guns being used. There was no distinction between 'ashigaru' and 'samurai' infantry. I'm led to believe that such a distinction is rarely made in Japanese boardgames of the period either.
The rules are a free download here:
gmtgames.com/p-169-samurai.aspx
Now, I'm not sure whether it's infringing copyright, but there are scans of the playsheets on the Board Game Geek page for the game, too.
Anyway, the rules are maybe worth looking at. I still feel a conversion of ACOS would work well, particularly if you use the system of counters from the ACOP campaign game to build your contingents. But it's too much work for me at the moment. I'd love to see any progress you make with it, however.
Lion in the Stars 10 Feb 2016 8:06 p.m. PST
I think I'd have to give every unit a shooting attack of some level at the stand=500men level of representation.
Just lump it all together, and assume that the clan commander will make whatever formation changes are necessary.
Then again, I'm pretty much a pure 1:1 gamer, so army level battles aren't something I do very often.
dddd99 11 Feb 2016 8:36 p.m. PST
Setsuko & Rabelais thanks so much for the replies. I have been reading about Blücher lately. Yes I think the "zoomed out" approach is more what I am going for. Not that I have anything against a smaller approach; I just do not think that many rules and basing systems achieve a historically accurate experience. In other words, if you look at the Kawanakajima Kassen Byobu screens or an EValerio illustration -- I have never seen that represented on the tabletop satisfactorily. It would require quite a large tabletop to achieve that with the individual unit approach.
So Lion, a 1:1 representation would prohibit you from simulating some of the medium and larger sengoku battles. I think you're all right with that though; It is just what you prefer. But if you invited me to a game of 1:1 and it involved samurai I would definitely accept and be happy for the game =-) . And your comment about giving each unit at the stand=500men level of representation a shooting attack is something I have already done in my humble homebrew rules. I think it is a must in that case.
Rabelais, I am definitely paging thru ACOS. And if I do make any progress I will try to update. And also thanks for the samurai rules link. I downloaded them and read thru them briefly at quiet points in my day.
So again, thanks for the comments. It has been enlightening for me to get so many good recommendations and exposure to other good rulesets. Take care and best wishes.
Rabelais 17 Apr 2016 4:50 a.m. PST
We finally got round to trying 'Ran' on the tabletop. It worked well, all thing considered. Each 'clan' can have around 10-20 'units' so there is more of a feel of a clan being composed of small contingents than other sets.
Anyway, thoughts and report are here:
wargamesasp.wordpress.com/2016/04/17/ran
Mike O 18 Apr 2016 2:07 p.m. PST
Great report there, Rabelais, lots of food for thought. I own the original "Samurai" boardgame but not "Ran" – just curious, in general terms, if there were many changes in the CRT and other charts between the two?
Wulfgar 18 Apr 2016 8:56 p.m. PST
Well done, Rabelais. Using the rules from the "Ran" boardgame is inspired.
Hopefully there are more copies out there. I just bought the last copy of GMT's "Samurai" from Fine Games through Amazon. I think that Noble Knight Games still has a copy or two of "Ran," but its getting into collector's item prices. About $119 USD or so, I think.
However, The rules can still be downloaded for free through the GMT website, so actually purchasing the actual games might not be necessary.
For myself, I stumbled across "Irregular Wars," which provides a similar game, but without all of the markers cluttering things up. I've been very happy with being able to play battles between small clans, and the table top looks much like the one in your photos.
Irregular Wars can be perused at this link from the author, Nicholas Wright:
irregularwars.blogspot.com
Irregular Wars provide lists for the earlier Muromachi period, the Sengoku Jidai, the Ikko Ikki and Sohei, the Ming, the Manchurians, and the Joseon Koreans.
Rabelais 19 Apr 2016 2:10 a.m. PST
@MikeO
As far as I can tell the CRT and other tables are exactly the same. However, the combat numbers are different due to the extra number of troop types. 'Ran' is a more streamlined set of rules than 'Samurai' IMO, but you should be able to continue to play 'Samurai' and use whichever changes you like from the 'Ran' rules without too much trouble.
We played 'Samurai' first and I liked that they had one infantry class rather than splitting samurai and ashigaru (which is apparently the norm among Japanese board games). Overall I think 'Ran' is an improvement but 'Samurai' works fine too.
Rabelais 19 Apr 2016 2:17 a.m. PST
@Wulfgar
Thanks for that, another set to check out!
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Unit Pack 2 -- Sengoku Jidai Campaign
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S2 unit pack 2
Link to the original thread posted on Total War Center forums (This is where you can find download links)
The second unit pack released by Radious adds 38 brand new units to the original Shogun 2 campaign making it one of the largest mods of its kind. This mod is fully compatible with all of Shogun 2's dlc's and *should* work alongside any other mods that add custom units to the game. Note: This only adds units to the default campaign and custom battles. It will not work on MP unless both parties have the mod installed.
Radious published two other unit packs that correspond with the other two dlc campaigns (click to navigate to their respective pages):
Unit Pack 1 -- Rise of the Samurai Campaign
Unit Pack 3 -- Fall of the Samurai Campaign
To see specific stats and pictures of units added by this pack simply click the name of the unit you wish to view:
Contents
1 Bow/Matchlock Units (Misc.)
2 Cavalry
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4 Onna Bushi (Female Warriors)
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Bow Warrior Nuns
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Elite Onna Bushi
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Wisely lead… without a head!
Rules for the Sengoku Jidai: Core Mechanics
Oct 15, 2020 by mmcv, posted in Feudal Japan, Rulesets
In my last post I gave a bit of background for my thinking on how a Sonae based Sengoku Jidai ruleset might work and some of my early experiments with it. To recap, the Sengoku Jidai refers to the period of civil war that devastated Japan in and around the 16th century. Armies were generally organised into sub units of mixed arms clans known as Sonae. The terrain of Japan meant warfare tended to favour looser formations and manoeuvre than would typically be seen elsewhere in the world at the time.
For the moment I’ve settled on “hit dice” as my randomisation method, namely rolling 4 dice, adding or removing dice based on situational modifiers, then counting any 6’s as a success. In this post I hope to explore some of the core mechanics I’ve been trying out; command and control, movement, combat and morale.
I am writing these into a more “technical” rules document, but wanted to lay out some of the general concepts here. At the end I will have a brief pencil and paper battle report to show how some of the mechanics play out.
Command and Control
This refers to the means in which the players actually command their armies and give orders to commanders and units. There are essentially three levels of command. The first and lowest level is the individual units, typically a mixed arm Sonae, commanded by a Samurai-daisho (military leader) a minor Daimyo (feudal lord). These commanders are abstracted into the units themselves and assumed to be dealing with the individual allocation of troops within the Sonae.
Multiple Sonae will generally be grouped together into a Te, or division. The most senior, and usually most powerful, Sonae within this division, is known as the Honjin (or headquarters Sonae), usually commanded by a senior Daimyo. This Honjin Sonae is the Commander for the entire Te, and is the one from which actions to the individual units will flow.
An army will generally consist of several of these Te with the leader of the most senior Daimyo’s Te being designated the overall Army General. Unlike the Commanders who are embedded into their Honjin Sonae, the Army General is treated as a stand alone entity based separately to a Sonae, though they will usually have one or more powerful Sonae in their own Te commanded by trusted retainers, usually including a Honjin Sonae with it’s own Commander. Typically there will be one Army General per side, but in large, multiplayer battles, there could potentially be multiple Army Generals, each leading their own set of divisions in coordination with their ally. This can lead to some fun possibilities for betrayal and treachery, as was common in the period.
These Army Generals may be in one of two states. The first is “Encamped” whereby they are based with their Maku screen and retainers, usually in a prominent but well defended position in the battle field. In this state they have powerful defensive modifiers, can send out messengers to their commanders, but cannot move themselves.
The second is “Mobile” whereby they mount up with their personal unit of bodyguard troops, known as the Hatamoto, and become a powerful unit in their own right with rapid movement but no ability to send out messengers to commanders and a greater chance of personal injury.
The fourth Battle of Kawanakajima: Takeda Shingen Vs Uesugi Kenshin - by Dmitry Filatov. | Takeda shingen, Samurai art, Japanese history
There is a somewhat fanciful story of the great rivals Uesugi Kenshin and Takeda Shingen engaging in a brief duel when Kenshin, mounted with his Hatamoto personal guard burst into the Takeda camp and engaged an unprepared Shingen, who was forced to defend with his steel war fan until his own Hatamo could drive Kenshin off. While it likely never happened, it does provide a good example of the two different ways Generals can operate.
Given the hierarchical clan status of the armies, the loss of a Commander will generally mean the loss of an entire division, and the loss of the Army General will usually spell the loss of the entire battle. So there is a fine balance between using these as powerful offensive units, while keeping them safe from harm at risk of collapsing the army. There is some potential around loyalty and successor mechanics that may mitigate this collapse somewhat, likely a series of Morale tests for the units and a test or special trait that allows a Commander or General to have a worthy successor to take the reigns of battle, but I’ve still to shake out the details on them.
Each commander (including the general) will have an Authority value representing their right to rule and the respect they hold from their retainers. This can be a positive or negative value, depending how powerful or weak they are. This value will be used to modify the number of orders that they can give. The commanders will also have a Command Radius that extends out from their unit, with Authority increasing or decreasing the range. Any units outside this Command Radius may only be given one order per activation. Any units within the General’s Command Radius will gain a bonus to their Morale tests.
At the beginning of each turn the player will decide if their Army General is Encamped or Mobile. If Encamped then they may designate a Commander to send a messenger to. If both the General and Commander are out of range of any enemy units then this is decided with a simple 4 + Authority d6 check (success on at least one 6). If either is within range of the enemy, the check is opposed and must score more successes than the enemy to succeed. If successful, then that commander can add the general’s Authority along with their own to their next activation. I did briefly toy with having messengers as their own units that travelled across the battlefield, but it became somewhat messy and required remembering which messenger had been directed at which commander. I suspect the messenger rules will undergo further modifications in time, for instance reducing the available dice over longer distances.
Activations are dynamic. For each command a token should be placed in a bag or stack to allow for random activations. Ideally this would be a token with the clans Mon (or symbol) on it, but could equally be coloured dice or chits, a stack of cards, etc. Anything that lets the players randomly allocate command activation. Players will draw a token and whichever general that token belongs to can allocate it to a command within the army. That command then activates and performs its actions, then the next token is drawn and the process repeats. This means play can alternate back and forth between the players, or may result in one player having a run of a few activations then the other player having the same. Each command can only activate once per turn.
Kamon Symbols of Japan — Encyclopedia of Japan
The Mon of some of the better known clans in the period, this would appear prominently on banners and screens for the clan’s troops. Some of the clan names in this graphic are non-standard renditions, such as Mouri (Mori) and Houjou (Hojo).
Once activated the command rolls a single d6, adding the appropriate Authority modifiers, and that will give the number of orders that can be given that activation. Orders can then be allocated out amongst the units under command to move, engage in combat or rally. There is no limit to the number of orders that each unit can have assigned, up to the total allocated, but those units receiving a large number of orders will have to take a morale test and on failure become fatigued and unable to take any actions the following activation.
Once all the orders have been allocated, or the player doesn’t wish to allocate any more, the activation ends and the next one is drawn. Once all commands have been activated, the turn ends and the cycle begins again.
Movement
This relates to how the units actually manoeuvre around the battlefield. My plan is to keep movement fairly simple. The distance of movement is the same for all units, though certain units will be allowed an extra move such as mounted generals. I’m generally assuming the unit of movement will be around a base width, as that’s usually a decent indicator of unit and table size. Each unit will have a front quarter, a rear quarter and two flank quarters, with the boundaries extending in diagonals from the unit’s corners. When I say something is n Movements, it means n units of whatever the movement distance is. To make a movement a unit will be issued with a Move Order. This will allow them to do one of three things:
Move directly into their forward quarter by up to 2 Movements maintaining facing. This may include charging into contact with an enemy unit.
Fall back into their rear quarter by 1 Movement maintaining facing. If this is given to a unit in combat they must take a Morale check after doing so.
Change facing to a different quarter and make up to 1 Movement in the new direction of facing. This covers all manoeuvring, whether it be changing facing and remaining in place, or moving in a new direction.
Units may be issued any number of Move Orders so long as the commander has Orders to allocate and they begin the orders within the Command Radius of the commander.
Terrain will have some impact on movement, essentially difficult terrain will only allow one Movement forward rather than two and roads allow an extra Movement when going forward or back along it. These rules still need a bit more experimentation. It may be that difficult terrain ends all movement for that unit for that activation and they cannot be given any more Move Orders.
Charging Mounted Samurai
Massed cavalry charges were rare in Japanese warfare of the period, but small groups of mounted samurai could turn the tide of battle when striking the right place at the right time.
Given the fixed distances, the rules as written could be easily translated to a square or hex grid. I’ve been playing out test games on gridded notepaper (mostly because it’s all I have to hand with everything packed away to sell our house) and it’s worked reasonably well, but overall the fluidity of free measurement will provide a much more satisfying range of movement options.
Ranged Combat
There are two types of combat in the game. The first, and generally less effective, is Ranged Combat. This represents the proportion of bows and guns within a unit. While bows and guns of the period had a theoretical range of 300-500 metres, in reality the effective range against armour was around 50-100 metres. Over time as the proportion of guns increased, firepower became more effective, but was still primarily used as a means of defence, behind screens and fortifications, or for softening up an enemy before the charge into melee for offensive actions.
Standard Ranged Combat will work as an exchange between two units at a range of 2 Movements or less. Most units will have some means of firing, even if its just a few samurai with bows and guns. There will be modifiers available to units, typically ranging from -2 to 2 that can reflect the proportion of guns and firing capacity. In a Ranged Combat exchange, both units will roll their ranged attack dice, hitting on 6s then total up the number of hits inflicted. The default number of attack dice is four, though the modifiers mentioned previously along with a few other special conditions (e.g. firing up a hill would be -1, while firing at close range would be +1) can modify these dice up and down.
Any side that receives at least one hit must make a Morale test, which will be described later but essentially consists of throwing four dice (+/- modifiers) with at least one 6 needed for a pass. For each additional hit past the first one in the Ranged Exchange, a dice is removed from the Morale test. So if a sonae of the Ouchi engages a sonae of the Mori in a ranged attack, both players would roll their attack dice. If the Ouchi rolled three 6s and the Mori rolled one 6, then both sides would be required to take a Morale test, but the Mori would do so with 2 less dice than normal due to the two additional hits.
Failing a Morale test from a ranged attack results in a unit status change. A unit that is fresh and in good spirits will become Wavering, which will somewhat impair their ability to fight in Close Combat. A unit that is already Wavering will become Brittle, which impairs them further still. A unit that is already Brittle will break and be removed from the battle. This means a ranged exchange is unlikely to cause serious damage unless a unit is already in dire straights. There will be a Rally mechanic described later to remove these statuses.
Ranged Ashigaru
Most ranged combat was done by sub units of Ashigaru peasant soldiers armed with matchlock “teppo” guns and light weight long bows known as “yumi”, though samurai would often have guns and bows as their primary weapons well. Indeed the yumi was the traditional primary weapon of samurai in earlier periods before massed peasant infantry and firearms became the norm.
Exceptions to this standard exchange are when engaging from the flank, in which case only half your attack dice can be used, or from the rear, in which case only one attack dice can be used. There is also the possibility of Opportunity Fire, the exact details of which are still under review, but will generally allow a unit to take unopposed pot shots at anyone entering firing range. I’m still not entirely sure on this given the exchange nature of standard firing, it’s mostly a means to prevent units skipping along the front of the enemy without consequence, but I may instead implement some form of Zone of Control on movement that prevents this instead. The other type of firing is Closing Fire, which I’ll cover shortly as part of the Close Combat exchange.
Close Combat
Close combat consists of up to four phases, Charging, Closing Fire, Melee and Shock. Charging is covered under the movement rules and is a movement that ends in contact with an enemy unit. The unit that initiated the charge will gain an extra dice in the first round of Melee. If a unit is Wavering it must pass a Morale test before charging and a Brittle unit cannot charge at all.
The defending unit may choose to use Closing Fire, that is an unopposed ranged attack, i.e. only the defender rolls their attack dice. If it is successful in hitting the charger, and the charger fails the Morale test then the new status is applied, the charge will be cancelled and the charger will fall back or pull up 1 Movement short of the enemy unit. However, if the charger is unharmed, the defender will have one less attack dice to use in the following round of Melee combat. This is to simulate the delay in bringing up the melee troops while firing at the charging unit.
The Charge and Closing Fire occur as part of the normal cycle of Orders, but Melee doesn’t occur until the end of the Activation. This allows all movements and ranged attacks to be carried out first, then all close combat will be resolved.
The Melee Phase involves both participants rolling their attack dice, modified as needed, with different results depending on the outcome. If both units fail to make any successful hits, then each will fall back 1 Movement to their rear quarter. If this movement is blocked, for instance by another unit or a terrain feature, they must instead take a Morale test and apply the appropriate status if failed. If both units make the same number of hits, they remain locked in combat and nothing else happens for them until the next time one of their commands is activated. If one side manages to make more successful hits than the other, that side is considered the victor and may move onto the Shock Phase.
The Shock Phase is representative of the elite troops, such as the samurai, exploiting a weakness opened up by the melee and rushing in to try and destroy the enemy command. In the Shock Phase the victor rolls their attack dice modified by any shock modifiers they may have (typically terrain affects the impetus of the shock phase more than the melee) with the outcome depending on how many successes they have.
With one success the enemy unit is destroyed but the attacker is Fatigued.
With two successes the enemy unit is destroyed and the attacker is not Fatigued.
With three or more successes the enemy unit is destroyed, the attacker is not Fatigued and gets a bonus order to use immediately.
The number of orders may increase with increased success, to be confirmed, and the destruction on one success might be too powerful, so one success may apply a status while two success destroys, etc. These are details to be ironed out in play testing.
Artwork of battle
Combat in the period often ended in bloody and brutal close combat.
Where multiple units are engaged, all dice are rolled together. This is the most “bucket o’ dice” part of the rules, but means large engagements can be dealt with quickly, and makes multi unit melee combats very dangerous, especially if Commanders are involved.
Flank and rear attacks also behave a little differently. There is no Closing Fire when attacking a flank or rear of the unit, and the defending unit cannot use a Shock Phase if it is engaged to the flank or rear, instead if it is victorious in the Melee Phase, the attackers both fall back 1 Movement. This is because an attack at a weak point of the formation would usually be reinforced by the samurai core of the unit, meaning they’ve less momentum to carry out a destructive counter attack immediately and instead just drive the attacker off. Any unit attacking the rear gains an additional attack dice as well as that was usually the weakest point of a formation.
Morale
As mentioned in previous sections, each unit will have a certain amount of Morale that it can use to show how resilient it is to breaking. All units have the same potential Morale statuses, Wavering and Brittle, though how those statuses affect different areas of the game will vary. Morale tests are called for in a number of circumstances where the resolve of the unit needs tested. Morale tests behave the same way as other tests in the game, a number of dice, four by standard, are thrown with at least one 6 being required to make it a success. Some units may have Resilience modifiers that can increase or decrease their morale dice, and having the Army General within range can provide an extra morale boost too.
One of the orders available to a commander is a Rally Order. With this a unit that is not in attack range of an enemy unit (i.e. typically 2 Movements away) and within the Command Radius of it’s Commander, may perform a Morale test and if successful, can reduce their negative statuses. So a Brittle unit that passes it’s Rally Morale test will become Wavering, and a Wavering unit that passes loses the negative status and returns to being fresh and ready for action.
Facing this sort of devastation would shake the morale of even the loyalist of samurai, let alone the peasant masses.
There are still some balancing tests needed with morale, for instance having the presence and loss of nearby units impacting the roll or requiring additional tests, but for the moment I’m keeping it reasonably simple.
Other Considerations
There are a few areas that still need some thought and consideration. I’m still testing out various options for moving through and fighting over different terrain. Given the varied landscapes of Japan I don’t want this to be too much of an imposition, but certainly particularly rugged ground should impose some limitations and fordable rivers appear in a fair few battles of the period so they are important to consider too.
Defensive works is another area that needs some thought. It was quite common for armies in the period to entrench into a defensive position, especially as the ratio of guns increased in armies allowing them increased concentrations of fire. This is definitely something I want to include, either as fixed terrain pieces on the battlefield or as a “dig in” option for a unit. I need to do some more reading on this before deciding how to represent them though.
Assaulting a defensive line
Defensive works were commonly employed on the battlefields of Japan, often made from bamboo or bundles of reed mats. By the later period, concentrations of firepower would make assaulting such defensive works head-on suicidal.
Beyond that there are a number of special rules and traits I want to include. I’ve already got an outline of many of these as a means of conferring special abilities on Generals, Commanders and individual Clan units. I want to be reasonably cautious with these to avoid it becoming a bit too video gamey or “Hollywood”, but I do wish to include some means to highlight leaders who stood out from their peers through tactical or strategic brilliance, or lack thereof, as well as clans that specialised in particular types of combat or weaponry, or were particularly loyal and devoted. There’s also some consideration to be given to the numerous sects of fanatic warrior monks throughout the period and peasant rebellions. I’m not focusing too much on these until I’m completely happy with the core mechanics, though have plenty of ideas for how they could work.
Formations is another thing that needs more consideration – both the individual makeup of the sonae and how they organise themselves internally, as well as the larger formation of the entire army. For the sonae themselves, different formations may confer different sets of modifiers, for instance aggressive or defensive formations, or those focusing on concentrating firepower, while for army wide formations, I’d be inclined to leave them up to the whim of the players as if I get things right they should “just work” as they were intended given the way the battles play out. We shall see!
Beyond that I’ll want to consider some “meta” play around a campaign system, or some means of playing linked battles, as well as some strategic considerations around scouting and espionage that may aid with deployment and game set up. The idea is allow for both historical battles and ones of the players own devising covering various possible scenarios from a straight up fight, through defensive actions or taking of key objectives. I’ve not decided if I’ll look at sieges or not yet, though castle assaults were a common feature of the warfare.
Battle Report
This is one of my pencil and paper test games played out on gridded paper to try out some of these core mechanics. In it, the fictional Maru (circle) and Shikaku (square) clans engage in a clash for control of a key river crossing. I rolled for random entry points across the game area rather than having everyone come in from opposite sides, this felt natural given the mustering of troops tended to involve calling in subject clans. Each army consists of three divisions, marked 1, 2 and 3, so for the purpose of this I will refer to them as the divisions as Maru-ichi (in the south centre), Maru-ni (north centre) and Maru-san (north west), then Shikaku-ichi (west centre), Shikaku-ni (south east) and Shikaku-san (north east). The notations is as follows:
Gm = Mobile General (bonus to movement and attack, negative firing)
Ge = Encamped General (bonus to everything, messengers but no movement)
C = command sonae (bonus to everything)
X = normal sonae
F = firing focused sonae (bonus firing, negative melee)
M = melee focused sonae (bonus melee, negative shock)
S = shock focused sonae (bonus shock, negative firing)
f = fatigued
w = wavering
b = brittle
Hopefully the hills, forest, river, stream, bridge and marsh are self explanatory. The position of the number indicates facing and the negative number on commands indicate lost units.
In the opening turn the Maru-san clan attempts to skirt around the Shikaku-ichi position to link up with their General, however they soon come in range of the enemy gunners stationed on the hill.
In the south, the Maru-ichi General moves to fortify a hill opposite the Shikaku position. Meanwhile the Shikaku-ni clan rushes towards the bridge to seize the objective and support their allies. In the north the outnumbered Shikaku-san clan attempt to secure their flank on the forest and present a line of attack to funnel the Maru-ni enemy into.
The Maru-san find themselves pinned down by enemy fire as the Shikaku General brings his troops to bear on their slow advance. Feeling the pinch on their flanks the Maru-san turn to engage. In the north east, after several exchanges of fire, an impetuous rush by a Maru-ni daisho drives some of the Shikaku-san from the field, and feeling the potential for encirclement growing, the Shikaku-san pull back into a better defensive position.
Not wishing to relent on the pressure, the Maru-ni keep pressing the beleaguered Shikaku-san, while the unopposed Shikaku-ni set up a solid defence between the stream and river. Frustrated by the fire from the hill, the Maru-san charge the Shikaku General’s position. The Shikaku-ichi manage to stall them at the foot of the hill, but the Maru-ichi take advantage of the exposed southern flank of the Shikaku position and storm the hill from there.
Attacked from multiple sides the Shikaku-ichi begin to collapse and the General abandons the camp and flees for the defensive lines of the Shikaku-ni. However, the Maru-ni advance crushes the Shikaku-san in the north and begins to sweep down towards the open end of the Shikaku-ni position, while the rest of the Maru forces begin their advance towards the stream.
The Shikaku fall back over the bridge, hoping the choke point will let them wear down the enemy, but the Maru forces sweep in from all sides.
The assault on the bridge begins and while the Shikaku forces put up a brave fight, they are now heavily outnumbered by the Maru attack.
In an epic clash, the elite shock troops of the Maru-ichi break the bridge defence while the constant fire exchange across the river wears down and eventually breaks several of the Shikaku defenders. With his army broken and troops fleeing the field, the Shikaku general signals the retreat and slinks off the field in disgrace. The day has gone to the Maru, and they have secured control of a vital point between the rival lands.
This was a lot of fun as a game, the narrative flowed easily from the mechanics and while there were a few points were I had to tweak bits or come up with rules for things on the fly, it really helped me refine down some of the mechanics, and determine what did and didn’t work.
Summary
To conclude, in this post we covered:
Command and Control: the role of commanders and how the dynamic activation and order system works, as well as the role of messengers on the field.
Movement: how movement is determined and the different types of movements available.
Combat: both ranged and melee combat and the opposed roll system they use.
Morale: how units test for morale and rally from their various states of disorder.
Discussed other areas for expansion and thought once core mechanics are settled.
Finally finished with a pencil and paper test game and report on how it went.
I’m not sure what my next post on this will be, as the next stage is probably play testing and refinement, then looking at some of the special rules. No doubt you’ll see some Feudal Japanese forces creep into my painting queue in the coming year in 3mm, 6mm and/or 10mm, along with some more test game battle reports.
Thoughts and suggestions are always welcome, I’ve only been in the hobby a few years and don’t have that many games under my belt, so any pitfalls or glaring omissions I’d be interested in knowing about, so please share!
As ever, thanks for reading,
Matthew
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Mr David Ford
Oct 19, 2021 at 6:07 pm
Great Stuff 🙂
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mmcv
Oct 20, 2021 at 10:08 am
Thanks David, I have revised some of these since this post, some of which is included in this post: https://mmcvhistory.home.blog/2021/06/08/rules-for-the-sengoku-jidai-revamped/
Which is why some of the bits here are a little different from what we had been chatting about elsewhere. The primary change is the combination of Morale, Fatigue and Ranged Combat into a single Fatigue/Loyalty mechanic.
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Assistant: Creating a list of Sengoku Era samurai troop units for your For Honor roleplay Discord server can help enhance the realism and immersion for your mass combat scenarios. Here's a list of potential troop units you can consider, tailored to fit a gun-free setting:
### Infantry Units
1. **Yari Ashigaru** - Foot soldiers armed with long spears; form the backbone of the army.
2. **Naginata Ashigaru** - Infantry wielding polearms, versatile in both offense and defense.
3. **Katana Ashigaru** - Swordsmen serving as support troops, skilled in melee combat.
### Samurai Units
1. **Yari Samurai** - Elite spear-wielding troops, superior to Ashigaru in skill and armor.
2. **Katana Samurai** - Highly skilled swordsmen, forming the core of offensive charges.
3. **Naginata Samurai** - Versatile warriors wielding the naginata, capable against cavalry and infantry alike.
4. **Ronin** - Masterless samurai, often mercenaries, who can be hired for their unique skills.
### Cavalry Units
1. **Takeda Cavalry** - Elite horsemen known for their speed and powerful charges with yari.
2. **Mounted Samurai** - Skilled horseback warriors, even more deadly when charging with katana or naginata.
3. **Bow Cavalry** - Mounted archers skilled in hit-and-run tactics, using yumi (bows) from horseback.
### Archer Units
1. **Yumi Ashigaru** - Foot archers forming ranged support, helping soften enemy troops.
2. **Bow Samurai** - Elite archers with superior skill and equipment compared to Ashigaru.
3. **Kyudo Masters** - Samurai dedicated to the way of the bow, providing precise and powerful ranged attacks.
### Specialist Units
1. **Sohei (Warrior Monks)** - Religious warriors skilled in martial arts and naginata.
2. **Onna-Bugeisha** - Female warriors trained in the use of the naginata and bow.
3. **Kunoichi (Female Ninjas)** - Specialists in espionage and guerrilla tactics, capable of sabotage.
### Support Units
1. **Standard Bearers** - Carry the clan's banner, boosting morale and organization.
2. **Drummers** - Keep rhythm to coordinate troop movements and boost morale.
3. **Strategists** - Advisors skilled in planning and executing battlefield strategies.
### Unique Units
1. **Hatamoto** - The personal guard of generals and commanders, elite bodyguards.
2. **Champion Duelists** - Expert swordsmen available for challenges and duels on the battlefield.
3. **Berserkers** - Warriors who enter frenzied states, unstoppable in close combat until exhausted.
These units can be used to create engaging and dynamic mass combat scenarios that reflect the diversity and strategy of Sengoku Era warfare without relying on firearms. Adjust details according to any specific game mechanics or lore within your For Honor roleplay setting.
User: Expand the list, and remove any gun units. Make it for honor fitting too (keeping immersive aspect):
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in: Total War: Shogun 2 cavalry
Yari Cavalry (Total War: Shogun 2)
Edit
For the Shogun: Total War unit, see Yari Cavalry (Shogun: Total War).
Yari Cavalry S2TW Icon
Yari Cavalry
Yari Cavalry S2TW
Appears in
Total War: Shogun 2
Belongs to
Most factions
Type
Spear Cavalry
Soldiers per unit
20/40/60/80
Attack skill
5
Charge bonus
25
Anti-cavalry skill
15
Armour
4 (Mounted)/4 (Dismounted)
Defense skill
1
Morale
10
Produced from
Warhorse Stables, Yari Drill Yard
Special abilities
Wedge Formation
Cost
800 SP/850 MP
Upkeep
200
Turns to train
2
Unit cap
None
Yari Cavalry are a type of yari cavalry in Total War: Shogun 2.
Description
Each yari cavalry samurai is armed with a long spear that makes him particularly deadly when swiftly charging into combat.
Yari cavalry focus all the power of their fearsome charge into the points of the long spears they carry as they smash into enemy cavalry and infantry alike. Their high morale spurs them into battle and keeps them from routing, even when engaged in melee, where their spears are at a disadvantage. Yari cavalry are best used to attack the rear or flanks of infantry to avoid spear counter-attacks and getting caught in messy, close-quarters fighting. Their amazing speed over the ground makes this entirely possible, as they can rarely be caught even by other cavalry units.
During the Sengoku Jidai, the spear and sword superseded the bow as the weapons of choice for samurai cavalry. Despite a long tradition of mounted archery, a bow could not be used in melee, leaving cavalry archers vulnerable to counter-attacks by foot soldiers. Spears, on the other hand, could be used to break enemy defences in a full charge, or used in quick, slashing strokes whilst in close combat. Swords could be used to cut an enemy down, but obviously lacked the range of a bow, or spear. However, if a samurai was wealthy enough, he would have an attendant to carry and hand him his bow, spear or sword, depending on the situation and personal preference.
Strengths & Weaknesses
Fast and very good charge.
Good against other cavalry.
Weak in prolonged melee.
Vulnerable to yari and naginata units in melee.
General Information
Yari Cavalry are mid-late game cavalry, boasting a powerful charge bonus but only average melee stats. They replace light cavalry, being superior in nearly every way but at the cost of higher upkeep and recruitment costs. Their anti-cavalry bonus and high speed make them excellent for hunting down enemy cavalry, and their high charge bonus allow them to disrupt enemy formations with ease. However, like all cavalry, they are weak to anti-cavalry infantry, and are also highly susceptible to ranged attacks, particularly Fire Rockets.
Two units of yari cavalry, along with a unit of Great Guard, are granted to any faction that becomes Shogun. This includes the Ikko Ikki, who normally don't have access to yari cavalry.
When trained by the Date Clan, Yari Cavalry have +2 charge bonus.
Takeda Yari Cavalry are cheaper to train and maintain (at 700/175 instead of 800/200), have +2 morale, +3 melee attack, +1 melee defence, and +5 charge bonus. They are slightly worse than Takeda Fire Cavalry in almost every way, but have a better charge bonus.
Total War: Shogun 2 Cavalry
Spear Cavalry Great Guard • Light Cavalry • Takeda Fire Cavalry • The Spears of Shizugatake • Yari Cavalry • Yari Dojo Cavalry
Polearm Cavalry Naginata Warrior Monk Cavalry
Sword Cavalry General • Katana Cavalry • Kiyomasa’s Katana Cavalry
Missile Cavalry Bow Cavalry • Donderbuss Cavalry • Tokugawa Mounted Gunners • Yoritomo’s Yabusame Cavalry
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Assistant: Here's an expanded and immersive list of Sengoku Era samurai troop units suitable for a For Honor roleplay setting, ensuring no gunpowder weapons are included:
### Infantry Units
1. **Yari Ashigaru** - Basic spear infantry, well-suited for forming spear walls and ranked formations.
2. **Naginata Ashigaru** - Versatile polearm infantry capable of defending against both cavalry and infantry.
3. **Katana Ashigaru** - Skilled in close-quarters combat, offering flexibility on the battlefield.
### Samurai Units
1. **Yari Samurai** - Elite warriors known for their mastery of the spear, excelling in organized combat.
2. **Katana Samurai** - Highly skilled with swords, forming the offensive forefront of any army.
3. **Naginata Samurai** - Balanced fighters capable of both offense and defense, adept against cavalry charges.
4. **Ronin** - Masterless samurai with unpredictable fighting skills, available for hire or rebellion.
5. **Dual Wield Samurai** - Samurai proficient in wielding two swords, offering greater attack flexibility.
### Cavalry Units
1. **Yari Cavalry** - Fast-moving spear cavalry, perfect for flanking maneuvers and pursuing fleeing enemies.
2. **Katana Cavalry** - Mounted swordsmen skilled in slashing down opponents in fast charges.
3. **Takeda Cavalry** - Renowned for their speed and discipline, often leading devastating charges.
4. **Mounted Samurai** - Expert horsemen, combining mobility with the deadly efficiency of a samurai's skill.
### Archer Units
1. **Yumi Ashigaru** - Infantry archers providing essential ranged support for large formations.
2. **Bow Samurai** - Elite archers with greater range and accuracy, capable of precision strikes.
3. **Kyudo Masters** - Expert bow users who are revered for their discipline and shooting accuracy.
### Specialist Units
1. **Sohei (Warrior Monks)** - Religious warriors with spiritual ferocity, skilled in hand-to-hand combat and naginata use.
2. **Onna-Bugeisha** - Female samurai trained in martial arts and weaponry, offering unique strategic capabilities.
3. **Battlefield Tacticians** - Provide strategic maneuvers and battlefield insights, enhancing the effectiveness of allied units.
### Support Units
1. **Standard Bearers** - Bolster the morale and organization of troops with the clan's emblem.
2. **Drummers** - Coordinate troop movements and elevate combat spirit through rhythm.
3. **Strategists** - Masters of battlefield tactics, aiding in the planning and execution of complex maneuvers.
### Unique Units
1. **Hatamoto** - Elite bodyguards of high-ranking officials, unswervingly loyal and fiercely protective.
2. **Champion Duelists** - Experts in one-on-one combat, challenging enemy leaders and inspiring allies.
3. **Berserkers** - Possessed by a fierce fighting spirit, causing chaos in the enemy ranks.
### Siege Units
1. **Siege Engineers** - Specialists in constructing and dismantling fortifications during castle sieges.
2. **Logistical Support Teams** - Ensure the supply lines remain intact and the army stays well-fed and ready.
This list emphasizes the traditional aspects of Sengoku period warfare, focusing on melee and cavalry tactics, as well as the strategic deployment of troops. It aligns well with the immersive, close-combat focus typical of a For Honor-style setting.
User: Can you possibly also make better names for some of the units instead of just weapon_type "samurai/ashigaru," for the fhu.
User: Not like that, keep it realistic and immersive and japanese sengoku.
Assistant: Certainly! Here's an enhanced list with more thematic and unique names for the Sengoku Era troops suitable for a "For Honor" roleplay server:
### Infantry Units
1. **Spear Sentinels (Yari Ashigaru)** - Stalwart defenders holding the line with unwavering resolve.
2. **Blade Reapers (Naginata Ashigaru)** - Swift-footed skirmishers brandishing their polearms with lethal grace.
3. **Steel Sworn (Katana Ashigaru)** - Sword-bearing infantry with oaths of valor and courage.
### Samurai Units
1. **Pike Vanguard (Yari Samurai)** - Elite guardians whose spears are the harbinger of order on the battlefield.
2. **Crimson Edge (Katana Samurai)** - Noble warriors whose blades sing songs of honor and bloodshed.
3. **Halberd Harbingers (Naginata Samurai)** - Ensuring no foe's charge goes unanswered with their daunting reach.
4. **Wayward Blades (Ronin)** - Masterless samurai whose unpredictable allegiance is matched only by their skill.
5. **Twin Fury (Dual Wield Samurai)** - Samurai who bring a dance of death to the fray with a sword in each hand.
### Cavalry Units
1. **Swift Lancers (Yari Cavalry)** - Mounted spear wielders who strike with the speed and force of the gale.
2. **Dawn Riders (Katana Cavalry)** - Charging into battle at first light, their katanas gleam with the sun's promise.
3. **Thunder Hooves (Takeda Cavalry)** - Known for their thunderous charges that echo the might of their clan.
4. **Steedbound Samurai (Mounted Samurai)** - A union of beast and blade, they are the epitome of mounted warfare.
### Archer Units
1. **Arrow Storm (Yumi Ashigaru)** - Their volleys darken the skies, a harbinger of the rain of arrows to come.
2. **Eagle Eye (Bow Samurai)** - With a gaze as sharp as their aim, no target is beyond their bow's reach.
3. **Silent Whisper (Kyudo Masters)** - The bowstring's hush is the last sound heard by those who meet their mark.
### Specialist Units
1. **Temple Guardians (Sohei)** - Warrior Monks protecting sacred lands with fervent might and spiritual fire.
2. **Maidens of War (Onna-Bugeisha)** - Female samurai whose presence on the field rewrites the tales of war.
3. **Enigma Strategists (Battlefield Tacticians)** - Masters of warcraft whose calculated decisions turn the tides of conflict.
### Support Units
1. **Banner Bearers (Standard Bearers)** - Carrying the soul of the army, they bolster hearts and steel resolve.
2. **Heartbeat Drummers (Drummers)** - Their rhythm syncs with the pulse of the battlefield, orchestrating the chaos of war.
3. **War Sages (Strategists)** - Veterans of countless battles whose knowledge shapes empires and fates.
### Unique Units
1. **Shadow Shields (Hatamoto)** - Elite protectors whose loyalty is as unbreakable as their defense.
2. **Duelist's Echo (Champion Duelists)** - The challenge of their blade echoes across fields, beckoning honorable combat.
3. **Ragekindled (Berserkers)** - Fury-fueled titans for whom battle is a trance of destruction.
### Siege Units
1. **Castlebreakers (Siege Engineers)** - The architects of victory, skilled in breaching the walls that dare stand against them.
2. **Provision Wardens (Logistical Support Teams)** - The unseen backbone, ensuring the army’s might never wanes from hunger or need.
These thematic names not only enhance the immersive aspect of your server but also lend a sense of individuality and lore to each unit, enriching the roleplay experience for your participants.
User: Not like that, keep it realistic and immersive and japanese sengoku.
User: Not like that, keep it realistic and immersive and japanese sengoku.
Assistant: